Saline Preservation Association

The voice of Saline Valley

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Posts: 46
My button! It has been pushed! Thank god all my trolling has not been in vain! Yaay!

According to Georg und Rita all you dedicated campers and all your improvements upon the quality of camping in Saline amount to jack squat. If you will kindly check the first post then you will learn that the world will soon be ending. Alles Kaputt!!

Racist? Hahaha! I trace my lineage back to medieval Prussia. I'm about as krauty as they come and it was but a jestful poke. Grab a chill pill, quick!

Yes I do have quite a lot of wilderness camping experience and I will suggest to you that fence or no fence, Saline is in fact enclosed by a culture, nominally represented by this website, and also by the infrastructure: tubs, palm trees, picnic areas, cars, power generators, radios, crazy naked people, etc., etc.

A fence would not be much of a shock aesthetically given the spring's current level of development.

I guess my point, if I have one beyond amusing myself here, is that is that I don't see any problems at Saline that I don't see elsewhere, albeit without donkeys. Where there's people there's conflict. That's life.

Maybe you can tell me what you are smoking so that I might aspire to becoming a higher informational visitor. Oops! Don't they call that a hippy dipshit??

Happy dunkin' to you! ( shweinhund )

Posts: 12
Spent the weekend at the lower springs. The place was as usual, nice and clean. We did not have an issues with the wildlife raiding our camp except a crow that wanted something in our trash bag. We also have never seen any of the issues raised in this thread and Lee has always been pleasant.  

Posts: 24
Just spent 11 wonderful days @ the lower springs. We didn't see even 1 coyote the whole time there! We did observe many newcomers & old timers feeding the burros. The oasis was in great shape, pools clean(except during a couple of big blows), burro poop was being cleaned up each morning. No complaints from us.

Posts: 39
dd, They call them internment camps?

S.C.S, I've never seen anything like Saline in any Park, Campground , Wilderness area , B.L.M.,Reserve , or anywhere in the U.S. of A. !

Posts: 2

Hi Gael, Your notice appears to be from a low informational visitor, instead of the many of us dedicated campers that visit and participate in improving the quality of camping at the Springs. Your reference to " German Guest Workers"  is racially insulting and Highlights the lack knowledge you have for the passion and hard work Georg and Ria have put into improving the camping ambiance at the Upper Springs.. Based on your experience in National Parks, it appears you are more comfortable in camping in enclosed fenced in areas..  Oops, don't they call these Prisons???

Posts: 23
I've never seen anything like Saline in any National Park I have ever been in.  

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Posts: 46
If the burros are such a dire threat to visitors then put up some basic ranch fencing around the springs and camping areas. This is done up in Nevada and it works. But honestly I don't see any major issues at the springs excepting occasional foolish behavior by party minded spring break types and of course Evil Dr. Lee training his personal army of assault-donkeys to wage terror on our german guestworkers. Hahaha! I challenge anyone here to name a single popular area of a single national park that doesn't have similar types of issues and conflicts as Saline.

But i do hear a lot of bellyaching and outrage over trivial issues that could easily be solved with a $3.29 plastic garden trowel and bucket combo, on sale at your local Home Depot.

Time to start thinking about getting a little gumption, maybe even a life.
paul belanger

Posts: 270
The days of the NPS failing "to exert even a small amount of effective management" are seemingly coming to an end.

I have always greatly appreciated Lizard Lee's dedication and stewardship of the springs. It's always been a huge comfort to know the extent of his mechanical equipment and skills and his willingness to freely share them. How many tens, possibly even hundreds, of thousands of $$$$$ has he saved the Saline community in inconvenience (and towing fees) over the years? And the countless hours of back breaking work he has put in on our behalf? He has dedicated his LIFE to the place.

But, alas, it must be observed that he has basically turned the lower springs into a burro and coyote preserve. One in which, seemingly, he alone is the only person who has any input over the planning and direction of. One can't see any way for this to end except badly. Possibly the NPS has allowed this situation to fester so they can further justify the changes they are preparing to implement. Wouldn't think they need to, though. The Feds are going to do whatever they want anyway.

Can't be much longer before the NPS announces the final draft resolutions for the springs.

Posts: 68
This thread deals with "Problems at the springs". Whether the animals be indigent or feral, at this point what difference does it make? Either way, these animals are supposed to be wild and should not be fed, or any attempt made to domesticate them. This has become one of the more notable problems at the springs.

For those of you calling for LL's replacement; be careful what you wish for; he has his good points and bad. As I have previously said, I like LL and a lot of what he has done, some I don't like. As with any organization, it becomes necessary from time to time, to manage, or guide, those who interact with the clients. This has not been done, or has ineffective.

I recently talked to an NPS Rep. and was informed that NPS recognizes that Saline is a unique situation and they do not have a valid, or definitive job description for Camp Host and there is no category for Assistant Camp Host. The operative word is "Host", this title should be somewhat self explanatory for a host interacting with the public. The NPS is aware of the on-going issues at the springs.

This interaction is simply missing at the lower springs, maybe LL needs an assistant to interact with the public where he is unable to do so, he does not have management  skills or the ability to effectively communicate with the public. The camp host should not be expected to be a camp cop, but they should at least comply with NPS reg's.  

The NPS acknowledges that some of their personnel monitor this SPA site, it is common knowledge that so does LL, why have I never seen even a single response from either of them  on any subject? I believe that the NPS has failed to exert even a small amount of effective management, or some of the blatant issues would not exist.

Happy Soaks.

Sparky of SoCal

Posts: 123
I tend to have to agree with Bob on the coyote idea. If the 'yotes are not considered native we then must classify man as a invader to the North American continent.

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Posts: 426
Not that it matters at all for this conversation, but coyotes most certainly are native to North America.  Maybe they're a recent introduction to Florida, but they've been in the American Southwest for around a half a million years.  They arrived with no "help" from man, unlike horses, burros, pigs, nutria, iguanas, pythons, rats, carp and countless other feral species that are causing much grief around the country.

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Posts: 1
Coyotes are not native to North America! They are an invasive species that has migrated up from South America and until the large bridges across the Mississippi in the 60's, Coyotes did not make it to Florida. Now they are causing havoc throughout the South East.

Posts: 15
Hi Saliners,

When we became Camp Hosts at Palm Springs in 2008 we took over the "SALINE VALLEY WISDOM" from the Lower Springs. We adjusted this list for the use at Palm Springs. The 2 pages are posted in the entrance of the outhouse at Palm Springs, and in addition we provide copies in a file on the shelf inside the outhouse. Since the bulletin board was beautifully restored by Kathy and George it's posted there year-round. Visitors just need to read it.

1.   Source water is sacred and limited. Don’t soak in, or touch the sources. For filling
      containers use  the spigot on the shower or the faucets on the sinks.
      The water is untreated and NPS does not recommend it for drinking.
      However, if you want to drink the water there is a high-quality filter available at the
      Camp Host.
      One or both sources are covered with solar pool blankets during the coldest month
      in wintertime. This keeps the Volcano Pool at a temperature of about 100°F / 38°C from
      December to February. The Wizard Pool is always hotter.

2.   Pool temperature regulation: As the sources have been putting out significantly
      less water over the last years the water should not be wasted. If the valves are
      fully opened during the night the source will be depleted, and in the morning 
      the pools will be cold. If you soak during the night please set the valves back to
      medium position. Never leave a pool as the last one and have the valve totally
      shut or totally open. 

 3.  Use soap ONLY in the shower, and NEVER in the soaking pools. Please shower
      off suntan oil, lotion and sweat before entering the pools, so that the pools
      stay clean. The pools are cleaned daily between 10 to 12 a.m. Never drain both
      pools at the same time. Check with camp hosts if you want to help with pool
      cleaning, and please use spray bottles for bleaching the pools.

4.   Garbage:
Please leave your campsite clean. Pick up your cigarette butts. Haul all your trash out.  There is no garbage service here! Do not bury trash. The critters dig it up. Do not leave paper at your fire pit for the next camper. Wind blows paper all over the desert.

      Fire pits:
      NPS demands that the ashes of the fire pits are taken out of the National Park . It’s
      understandable that many visitors have a fire going until shortly before leaving, so they
      cannot take out all of their own hot coals. The easiest way to keep the fire pits always clean
      is to collect the ashes out upon arriving; this  way everybody has only a small amount of
      ashes to take out.

      You can also help by asking the Camp Hosts if there is any non-burnable trash that
      needs to be taken out of the valley when you leave.

      Aluminium cans may be dropped into the recycling barrels next to information board and
      Wizard Pool.  Please use the provided can crushers. The proceeds of the cans go into the
      much needed camp fund.

5.   Quiet time is from 10 p.m to 7 a.m. Be courteous and respectful. Sounds carry in the desert,
      so watch your music, drums, generators etc. Let others enjoy the view and the quiet.

      If you arrive during quiet hours PLEASE don’t disturb other campers’ sleep by driving
      through camp and looking for a campsite. Park at the next possible spot and look for a
      campsite next morning!

6.   For sanitary and health reasons, babies and toddlers must wear waterproof swim diapers in
      the pools. Swim Diapers are available at the Camp Hosts (Palm Springs).
      Children under 14 years must be supervised by parents while in the pools (per
      Inyo County Health Department regulations).This is for the safety of your children! Please
      don’t let your child soak unsupervised with strangers !

7.   All vehicles, including motorcycles, bicycles and 4wheel drive vehicles must remain on
      established roads. All motorized vehicles must have street license plates.
      Off-road vehicles may NOT be operated in DVNP at all.

8.   Why do the military jets fly so low? This area is a designated low level flight corridor. This
      has remained in effect with passage of the Desert  Protection  Act.

9.   The NPS  enforces the leash law. Have your pets under control at all times and
      clean up after them. In case of an emergency there is a bucket with bags and a bucket for
      doggie poop close to the Wizard Pool.

 ATTENTION DOG OWNERS:  There will be always inconsiderate visitors who are
 shooting unlawful fireworks. Be aware about this, especially on Holiday weekends,  and
 keep your pet safely inside or leashed. There have been several cases of lost pets because
 of fireworks.

10.  It would be a good idea if you plan a longer hike to tell your neighbors or the Camp Hosts
       about your destination.

11.  All materials and supplies are donated by visitors. Items most needed are:
       Toilet paper, hand sanitizer, kitchen towels, wet toilet paper, cleaner spray and bleach.
       PLEASE BRING BLEACH ONLY FROM OCTOBER TO JANUARY, because it deteriorates in
       the summer heat and has to be thrown away!
12.  The position of the Camp Hosts is a volunteer, non-paid contract with the NPS.

13.  Because coyotes, burros, and ravens have learned to open and raid food and garbage
       containers, store ALL your coolers and food containers and SHOES  inside vehicles or
       tents. (Yes, Coyotes steal leather shoes!)

14. Leaving toilet paper in the washes is an eyesore and very inconsiderate. Please don’t bury
      toilet paper, the critters dig it up. If for any reason you can’t make it to the outhouse then
      put at least the toilet paper in a bag and burn it in your fire pit or put it in your garbage.
Hi Desert Warrior

Posts: 209
I strongly agree with you Trigger.   The do's and don't are for city slickers and wan ta be campers that took a course in camping at the Sierra Club and forgot  most of what they were taught.  Being my first time at any warm springs, seven years ago, I didn't know what was expected of me at the springs.  Before I stepped out in the buff, I observed the activities then followed the activity with "when in Rome do as the Romans do".   To me showering before soaking is a must.
My last two cents about Burros.  First Nelson's Big Horn sheep are not on the endangered list.  The Burros are not a danger to the sheep, nor do they attack them.  The sheep enemies are domestic sheep by the spread of diseases and Mountain Lions that roam in the Inyo Mountains.  As far as who is more destructive to the desert environment?  Lets see, Burros eat plants down to the roots.  Sheep eat plants, roots and all.  Look up the internet-  Nelson's Big Horn by Author John D. Wehausen, BLM Bishop.  He puts facts not fiction in place about the sheep and Burros.  I am very surprised and sorry to hear about the Burro Buehia.  To allow this animal to frequent the springs for a year and not reporting it to the Park Service is inexcusable.  The Park Service would have sent a vet out to look at her and if determined a hazard to humans, they would have had her removed.  Only City Slickers would try to get up close to animals in heat, as they don't know any better.  Just like you never ever approach a horse or Burro from the rear.  Or you might end up with a good kick from them.  Just say'in.

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Posts: 46
My exact words were "post a list" not "create new signage". I too am against clutter.

How about affixing a 3" x 5" card with the words "Ask the camp host how you can contribute to maintaining this beautiful place.", or some such, at the welcome board.

I also would like to see a new tab on this site with a static ( non discussion ) page giving specific examples of good deeds and camp needs one might ask the camp host about. Perhaps even a word or three on proscribed behavior. A "New Visitor" tab, if you will.

Donkey feeding aside, I think a lot of these issues can be made good by strongly emphasizing a DIY ethos. The camp hosts are not our mommies and daddies. Saline ain't Club Med.
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