Saline Preservation Association

The voice of Saline Valley

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Posts: 6
11 / 27  just got home, had to turn around at the south road did not want to chance snow and washouts, if any one got in have a good thanksgiveing.  radiation man.
Major Tom

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Posts: 353
I just got a call from Fun Fun Debbi, Friday night, 5:45. She encounted a foot and a half of snow drifted on the south pass before turning around. She called from Keeler. Word from Bishop is that it started snowing about 9 this morning. More will be posted as I hear it.

Posts: 4
so, y'all, why is this subject called "no vehicle access to the springs"?  it's confusing.

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Posts: 103
In the forty-four years I've been plying the back country of DV, I've seen a lot.  Too much for this space. 

This quote sums up how goofy it can get out there:

"The probability card. Stats are fun. I went to colege (sic)."

THE fatal mistake is assuming someone else come along and will save your ass.  If you chose to wing it, best of luck to you out there (we all need a little of it). 

BTW my real name is not "Tule", it is "Tall Grass That Grows In Marshes".  Neither of the Jeeps in the avatar are mine, I drive the tree behind them.  I would have a nicer ride but for I had to raise a son who is an off-road fanatic. 

Posts: 4
On one hand we complain about the crowds, and the other we complain about the roads. that just leaves the question of how important is it to you to get there, its that simple. to each their own.  Those that want to brave the new road conditions might get to experience some solitude. how they "brave" the roads is up to them, take whatever tools, kits, tires, comm gear, winches jacks lights, etc. they want. 

Posts: 148
I love the spirit of the springs, though I am a newbie, and I am intrigued by the conversations on the blog.
To toss in my experience from the oceans, I remember many a reflection once I made harbor or a safe anchorage after going through a storm, that I was sufficiently prepared in equipment, attitude and abilities to survive the awesome powers that are much greater than us.  The sea is a tough taskmaster, such that people die when not so prepared.  The desert can do likewise, though in most cases we still have the option of pulling over to the side of the road and taking a breath to evaluate and reconsider where and how to go from there, and only the basics are essential to survival.
But as my mother-in-law says, God must love stupid people, otherwise why did he make so many of them? and common sense ain't so common.
In the meanwhile, I have extra if somebody needs it.
Bob from Tahoe
Hi Desert Warrior

Posts: 210
I go by my saying " It is good to have and not use, than to have not and need."  I always bring more water than I need. Sometimes at the springs and going out I have given my water away to those that came unprepared.  In the spirit of the Saline Valley Campers that we are all. 

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Posts: 215
See! The healing powers of Saline have struck again. We're all friends now. I love it!!! Hope to see you all there too

Posts: 38
whoa, for a second this was beginning to sound like the "stranded in DV" thread on Panamint [biggrin]
Being prepared is a relative thing. Have fun and be safe.
Heading out Friday morning for 3 days in the back country, I'll post pics when I'm back.

Posts: 43
Yea. I have a tendency to get all fired up for no reason. I'm sure you're all great folk, look forward to seeing you at the springs. One of my pet theories is that the only way we will see the springs continue in perpetuity is if new people go, and learn to have a reason to protect all that has been built there. Sometimes I think that the posts on this forum are designed to keep people out. I understand that there is a concern for people getting in over their heads, and the last thing I want to do is make access any easier. You all do a much better job than I do making people aware that the journey is somewhat serious, but at the same time there should be an encouraging element for the people who are timid about driving down a dirt road. The more people who love saline, the more power we have when they try to run a dozer through it. 
Sparky of SoCal

Posts: 86
 In an odd way it looks like everyone is on the same page here. One thing we all know there are some people who are completely ‘lost’ when it comes to planning, research and just being prepared. They do have a gas card and a set of keys to their mobile transportation unit and the desire to see the great outdoors. I worry about those people. I will do anything within reason to help them out and to encourage them to get their act together and help them enjoy their outing. I understand there is a fraction of the, let’s say, outdoor community that would like to see fewer people in the backcountry. I understand that thinking, I just don’t agree. I want to see more educated hunters,fisherman,rafters,hikers etc.The more educated enthusiast there are the more folks we have trying to stop closures. Just my 2 cents. I do agree with bmxmtbman, I could go on forever but I do need to get something done a work.

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Posts: 215
Hahahahaha!!! Bmxmtbman! Sounds like you got your feelings hurt! You should read your original post again. The reasons people jumped on you are many. You were pretty clear about how "sick" you were of the 10 essentials Boyscout propaganda. Did you mean the people who have experience going out there for many years trying to prevent someone from getting hurt by giving good advice? You mean that propaganda?? I think every person on this forum would agree that being mentally prepared is extremely important. Alot of people read this forum trying to learn what they need and how to prepare for a trip out there. Thats a good thing! You do have the right to post pretty much what you want but the comments you made were not smart. The comments you made clearly read that you don't need to have the right equipment out there. Almost making those of us that do have the right equipment seem to be some kind of idiots that have no sense of adventure. All to often the adventurous unprepared and their supporters fail to think of the SAR and EMS personnel who are risking their lives to rescue those folks. And as far as helping people I have no doubt every person on this forum would stop and help you if you needed it, myself included! God knows I've helped my share of stranded folks. And no, Trigger is not my name. Trigger is my old dog that passed away after a fight with cancer and I honored him by naming myself on this forum after him. He had been going to Death Valley and Saline his whole life. My name is Justin. I never hide behind anything. He'll my truck is my Avatar. You can't miss it out there! I'm young and I have a hot young brunette girlfriend as well!! You don't have to spot me a beer but ill still make you and your girl a mean ass rum and coke!!!
Big Jeff

Posts: 106

I think there is common ground somewhere here and no you didn't piss anyone off, we are all just trying to make a point here.  

1.   I carry what I carry to help people and myself if needed.   I know how to use what I carry and encourage others to do the same.   If you take the time to read in detail, the posts in this forum, you will see that, in general, I tell people "and know how to use it" in regards to the gear they should carry.   Sorry I don't buy the 20% 80% ratio, what good does it do to know how to use a shovel if you don't have one.

2.   There is something you can do driving up 395 it's called Defensive Driving.   As for Saline I don't consider it to be dangerous. just more likely to cause equipment related problems.

3.   You are probably in the 1% who will free climb without ropes, go minimalist into the wilderness, ETC., other people will want and need more, and then there are those that need all the help they can get.   We want all people to enjoy Saline, we just don't want them to get hurt or die.   Also you seem to have an attitude for physical altercation, where's the Saline Peace, Love and Harmony Vibe.   We have no need for Sparky's in Saline unless you are an Electrician (no offense Sparky of SoCal).   As for PLB's they have a lot of other uses than just an SOS button.

I am glad you get the Saline helping attitude, that's what it's all about.

In regards to Alaska is cold, again I say read the post in detail.   I gave good advice and explained some of the conditions he might encounter.   But when someone says that they want to "Drive" their
motorcycle you have to wonder about their skill level.   What might have been OK for a less skilled Rider a couple of years ago has changed with the recent road damage.   And it seems he was trying to join up with a group going in, that's good.   By the way I do a lot of off road travel by myself.

In my closing, Ben, I want you to know that I won't leave you or your vehicle to die out there, in fact I would jump in to help you or anyone else, that's what I do, that's part of the adventure.

Big Jeff

Posts: 40
Hey Ben, after reading your last post, I sure misunderstood what you were trying to say earlier.  I'll bet that's never happened on an internet forum before. [wink]  Have fun, I'll save a beer for you in case we meet up sometime.

Posts: 43
Wow. A lot to address here. I must have pissed someone off, since they are going to leave me on the side of the road to die for expressing my opinion anonymously on the interwebs. But I prefer to light a candle than curse the darkness, so here goes. 

1. This is probably the most important thing I believe, that I think has been misinterpreted. You should be prepared. This does not mean carrying everything, and then the kitchen sink. Blindly carrying stuff that exists on some list, without understanding why will probably get you killed. To me being prepared means knowing how to handle yourself, even if you are not equipped with the most high tech of everything. Like a shovel. This forum and the frequent posters emphasize, I believe erroneously, that equipment is paramount. I would way rather go to Saline (or anywhere vaguely challenging) in a beater honda with beer and doughnuts and someone I know and trust, then with a city boy in a lifted desert runner and all the gadgets. (Although those trucks are fun as a drunk monkey.) Equipment will not save your life. It might help, but your decisions and skills are far more crucial. I'd say that its 20 percent equipment, 80 percent ability when the donkey doo hits the fan. Unless the piece of equipment is a helicopter. 

2. The probability card. Stats are fun. I went to colege: can make them say anything. Looking at the issue this way one finds that you are far more likely to die driving up 395 than in saline. Not a lot of help. Driving in proximity to other nutcases on a daily basis lulls us into thinking that it is not dangerous, and we do nothing about it. Saline is the opposite. Since we do not venture to the valley daily, we think it is more dangerous than it is. This is a theory, but I think its a good one. 

3. DeLorme InReach/ SPOT/ PLBs. This is a personal favorite of mine. I am an elitist prick, and I make no apology for that. In my world there are two types of people who go after a challenge. The first, and far more common type, tries to bring the challenge down to their level. The primary way they do this is to bring equipment and other types of support to help them surmount said challenge. These are the people paying 70g's to climb Everest. To them checking off the challenge is more important than the style in which they accomplish it. They are like stamp collectors with a checkbook and an ego. The second, rarer type of person tries to raise themselves to the level of their chosen challenge. They train. They pare their equipment to the minimum. They train some more. They do "Yoda Poop". The fact that Trigger (probably his real name) mocked my idea of being prepared as something Jedi shows that he has, and is not likely to have, any idea of what I am talking about. Thats fine, not all will. He also probably spends too much time in front of a screen. Trigger, come call me a tool to my face sometime. See how that goes for you. 
Now. This is where things get interesting. The new consumer models of personal locater beacons has changed this dynamic. Whereas before people had to decide what to take, and live by their decision they now have a whole new option. They can just hit the big old OH DARN button, and pass on all responsibility for their predicament. Now, obviously these devices can save lives, but they also create a perceived safety and complacency that has no place in the wilderness. Every time someone hits that button some team of poor bastards has to mobilize and rescue their sorry ass. Maybe better to simply be capable enough to deal?

I realize that this has little to do with Saline. Its a hotsprings a few miles down a little dirt road. When I go I usually bring a girl, beer, and all the other malarky. I help anyone who is in trouble, and don't get all snotty about it, even if they have not even the most basic gear. To me the community of Saline is all about this helping attitude. I have met a bunch of cool people, given them gas, drunk a lot of their beer, eaten their food, and reciprocated in kind. Its great. 

What prompted my original post were comments like these:
An unequivocal statement "Don't go alone."~ Big Jeff. Well that's caca de vaca. Not only is he discouraging someone from visiting an awesome place, but he gives no justification. Are there lions and tigers and bears? Or do you simply need to not be a dumbass. Many many people go to Saline alone. I would argue it is sometimes more profound alone. 

"Luck favors the prepared" Absolutely. We just disagree about what prepared means. I think it means to have a personal idea of your capabilities, and an ability to improvise and deal. You think its has to do with equipment. I suspect reality lies somewhere in the middle. 

Now if you are still reading, congratulations. Grab another beer, and keep not doing whatever you ought to be. I know that writing on this forum is an avoidance behavior for me. Doing this is a bunch easier than what I should be doing on a monday evening. But since we are both wasting time, onward! And to hell with that other diarrhea I should be writing. 

The responses to my post amused, but also surprised me. Getting people to look at things a little differently is my job, so its good. 

Big Jeff wants me to wear a name tag so he can abandon me to die. Sweet bro. Stoked to see you at the springs. What an attitude... Well, my name is Ben York. I drive a white or red toyota tacoma, depending on the day. Or a bike of some description. I'll be in Saline over thanksgiving, with a gorgeous brunette. I'll spot you a beer if you tell me what truck you drove in Baja. I'd also be fascinated to know what White Water Rivers you did your Running on. White Water Boat Riding happens to pay some of my bills. Not on the big rubber things though. 

Mr T. He liked to imply that my lack of experience prompted my writing. Actually it was a total lack of other things (that I wanted) to do, but this is always an entertaining argument. Having the "who has more experience" pissing match on the internet. Hilarious. If you like we can have this discussion in person sometime. The only thing I suspect is that I am younger than most of the posters. Does this automatically disqualify me from having valid experience? Anyway. Mr T: I pity you foo. Life's about more than bean counting. 

Trigger. Like I said. Come see me sometime. It'll be fun. I enjoy enlightened conversation, and you are clearly quite capable in that field. Not gonna spot you a beer though. Just on general principle. 

Btoothill. High five bro. Be more careful before you agree with me next time. The safety nazi eeyore internet folk will get you. We can drink beer too. Yea! 

In conclusion (all useless and longwinded papers need a conclusion): Stay safe, have fun, get scared, get drunk, get stuck, wreck, flip, win, lose, and carpe the spectacularly above average diem. Not necessarily in that order. 

~Ben York. Red Yota. Saline Valley Thanksgiving. 

PS. Mitch, Stoked you got your van out. That looked all kinds of boogered up. Good thing you're a badass mothervanbuilder and built a sweet rig, and KNEW WHAT TO DO.
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