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Farmer_Fred

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Posts: 52
 #1 
Dish washing      If stations removed  dish washing will still take place.   Unhealthy in an uncontrolled environment .   Watch out for the alternative it MAY come back to bite you.   All we need is screens on the drains and removal of catchment     deposited in the outhouses  Simple.   Alternative does not refer to potability of water via the written script.
RiverRat
 #2 
Interesting about the requirement for drinkable water in a NPS campground, in order to charge for the site.  This last summer/early fall, I spent several nights in the Island in the Sky unit of Canyonlands NP, on my way to a Canyon trip.  NPS campground up there was a fee campground, but did not have water (although lots fell out of the sky during monsoon events, especially the 2AM one with sideways rain).  The fee was cheap ($10?), compared to your usual NPS campground.

Island in the Sky is a plateau surrounded by 1,200 ft cliffs.  Way cool.  Lots of tour busses, though.  Any spot, a view to die for.  I was on my belly, looking over the edge of one of the 1200 ft cliffs, a female bus tourist walked over, stood by my head, and looked over.  You could hear her heart stop, from the strangled "uughh" noise she made.  Laying on my belly wasn't a clue?

RiverRat
dplum

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Posts: 10
 #3 
Trash receptacles means someone to empty them... the person collecting the money. There can't be enough income from the springs to justify the position, can there?

Regardless, just to be as far away from the possibility as can be, I'd rather wash with dirty water at a sink that was well signed to put the full responsibility on me. I hope that alternative can fly.
James Sel

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Posts: 322
 #4 
I'm thanking god CFR 38
SilverBob

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Posts: 378
 #5 
CFR= "Code of Federal Regulations".  The National Park Service operates under CFR 36.  State, county or private campgrounds are not under the same laws.
florida

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Posts: 291
 #6 
There are many campgrounds without potable or ANY water, and they still charge a fee. I agree the waste water is our issue here.
florida

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Posts: 291
 #7 
CFR ? Sorry but I'm ignorant. County statute?
Major Tom

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 #8 
"Tis best to keep the State and County health departments out of that loop."

I regret to say, that ship has sailed. It could well be that Silver Bob has nailed the issue, and I do recall this as well, now. Securing the source may be one of those inevitable changes.
SilverBob

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 #9 
Here's something else to consider. SPA was asked by former Superintendant J.T. Reynolds what the community would think about a camping fee for the Saline Warm Springs Area. He seemed surprised when I told him that he'd have to get the law changed in order to allow that. Indeed, 36 CFR sec. 71.9 specifically states:


Provided, That in no event shall there be a charge for the use of any campsite and adjacent related facilities unless the campground

in which the site is located has all of the following: Tent or trailer spaces, drinking water, access road, refuse containers, toilet

facilities, personal collection of the fee by an employee or agent of the bureau operating the facility, reasonable visitor protection,

and simple devices for containing a campfire (where campfires are permitted).

 

 


Even if the water at the sinks were to be deemed "potable", we still wouldn't have to pay to camp until trash cans were provided. Is that likely? Probably not, but it's something to keep in mind.

timo

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Posts: 5
 #10 
I concur with Silver Bob on not pushing the 'potability' issue.  I ran a public water system for 15 years and the regulations for potability testing are thick as well as expensive.  Tis best to keep the State and County health departments out of that loop.


pugsly

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Posts: 44
 #11 
Quote:
Moral of the story, if you want to preserve the place, leave it as is. What's going on out the springs is working. The source is beautiful, don't cover it up.


While I understand the emotion behind this position I don't believe it is pragmatic or practical. Changes are coming and we can either try to be a part of them or have the changes inflicted upon us.  Sticking our head in the sand is not going to keep things from changing, it will only ensure that we aren't heard.

I understand the issues with potability and the communal dish washing station. seems like we have some practical suggestions.  The reality is that today nobody can ensure the purity of the source (a burro could poop in it.  heck, a drunk/disgruntled human could).

Instead of saying "never had any problem before" we need to come up with ways to mitigate risk.
timothy_sutherland

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Posts: 31
 #12 
I grew up with my family going to Yosemite National Park every year. We would always stay in the cabins by the river at The Lodge. About 20 years ago there was a huge storm and a tree fell on a cabin and killed a lady. A tragedy, yes. What did the National Park service do? They cut down the forest surrounding the all the cabins. A few years later, there was a flood and then they took out all the cabins. What are we left with today? Nothing.

Moral of the story, if you want to preserve the place, leave it as is. What's going on out the springs is working. The source is beautiful, don't cover it up.
SilverBob

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 #13 

Just so we don't have to reinvent the wheel, here's a quick lesson on what we learned about potable water back in 1994.

 

When the Desert Protection Act was passed by Congress, there were many among us who were sure that the Springs were done for. People were just guessing what excuse the NPS might use to bulldoze the place. The subject of potable water was often cited as one of the possible reasons. Indeed, the water at the Springs is considered by the state of California to be “Non-Potable”. It has nothing to do with the content of the water, but with the condition of the source(s). In California, “surface water” can not be considered potable without treatment. What is “surface water”? Any source that is open to the sky. Without some type of locked cover over the sources, we'll still have “surface water”. The construction of a permanent cover over the source at the Lower Springs was suggested, since that would reclassify the water as “spring water”, which can be considered potable, as long as its content doesn't exceed certain levels of contamination. That idea was universally dismissed by the users at the time, because we'd been drinking it for years with no apparent problems. While that's still true, it might be time to revisit that suggestion.

 

If we can eliminate the issue of potability, we can concentrate on the question of discharge, and go from there.

Farmer Dean

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Posts: 19
 #14 
Paul, thanks for explaining in clear and simple terms about the dishwashing station's discharge. One of the great things about Saliners is that they are clever, resourceful people, many with industrial talents. How about plumbing the sink discharge through a basket strainer (think swimming pool plumbing) of the proper mesh so as to catch food  stuffs and convert black water to grey water. Those types of strainers are easily serviceable (without tools) and the trappings could be tapped out as needed into a small (2 gallon?)wildlife proof, trash bag lined metal container. Volunteer exiting guests can remove the liner as needed to dispose properly outside of the Park.
Removing the dishwashing stations would only exasperate the situation; the same amount of dishes would be washed, only it would be done at 50 different unfiltered locations. Using that type of logic the solution to the servicing needs of the vault toilets is to remove the toilets. People aren't going to quit crapping, it would just distributed at a thousand locations fifty feet from the perimeter of Upper and Lower - now wouldn't that be a mess!
Clear precedence concerning water with high amounts of dissolved solids has already been established in other areas of the Park: Stovepipe Wells has outdoor faucets that are clearly marked (disclaimer-ed) as non-potable. I'm sure a properly worded sign could be approved and installed at the dishwashing station to educate and warn visitors of the perils of using the station. Farmer Dean
Major Tom

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 #15 
People, don't forget to vote in the poll on requesting a comment extension ... the poll can be found on the IMMEDIATE ACTION REQUIRED thread.

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