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Unregistered
 #1 
Pray for rain. Pray for storms. Pray for erosion in all it's beautiful forms: washouts, ruts, mudslides, rockfalls, geological freakouts, road closures, renewal, silence, solitude, peace. I have always argued that the best and cheapest management plan for Saline involves the benign neglect of the roadways.



Unregistered
 #2 

 I have only been to Saline  a few times over the years and my wife and I have enjoyed it very much just the way it is. Living very close to another National Park, and right next to a National Forest, I have seen the results of some of these plans first hand. Most have done nothing but take away the freedoms that the people in this country once enjoyed, one new rule or regulation at a time.

Biotech Dave

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 #3 
That would suck to have to camp way off.  I like having the vegetation to hunker down in with my tent.  Out in the open is too wind exposed.


Major Tom

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 #4 
Re: disabled ... way back in the early days there was a fellow from Bishop who would come out, and he didnt have any legs. He parked next to the lawn, when you could do it, and wheeled his chair over to the pool and was able to get in and out without any big issue. Where there was a will, there was a way, back in the days of the wild west!

I have heard it suggested, (I believe by people associated with the Park?) that there is a possibility that camping might be relegated to an area outside the springs, such as the ball field next to the Lower Springs, and then access to the springs would be by walk-in only. I don't think we want to see that!
Glenn Young

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 #5 
Regarding camp boundaries, there are stated limits to camping areas .  Camps must be within 300 ft. of a water source(Lower Warm or Palm Spring.  They aren't enforced thankfully, or we'd all be smashed together on big weekends.
Glenn Young

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 #6 

James Sel

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Posts: 322
 #7 
Thanks Sam,  All I was stating is that access to a camp spot that is disabled person friendly might come in handy for those whom want to visit the area.  My hidden agenda ( & secondary) is if there are funds to make designated campsites, all the funds should be spent on a couple of  disabled spots. The point is to exhaust the funds so that  no money left to make designated other spots. Maybe my idea might wacky, but it is meant to be food for thought. I want the NPS to feel obligated: that if they want to designate campsite that it is more complicated than waving a wand.
   
tronaborn

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Posts: 86
 #8 
I wouldn't worry about it, Sam.  Disabled people do go out there, including people in wheel chairs coming out by themselves.  Self-sufficency is a wonderful thing and it's one of the reasons I like going to Saline Valley.
Sam D.

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Posts: 677
 #9 

Sorry if it came out as anti-disabled.

What I meant to say was that making designated campsites might lead to a slew of lawsuits unless NPS adopts the policy of “hot springs are natural occurring phenomena and NPS neither maintains nor improves them”.

James Sel

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Posts: 322
 #10 
thanks for reconsidering Sam
rickandurs

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Posts: 78
 #11 

Heay, we are doing the right thing on putting our heads together but a LOT OF FOLKS are only going to quack at the results because the did not respond, tell all Saline folks you know to get on the ball, the camping is only one issue too, lets light a fire under others.

Now, how does this sound, first option and the one the majorty has responded to so far is, No changes needed, status quo, ok, AND it if, for some reason, that doesn't fly, option to and grudgingly is a perimiter, ok? Option 3, camp sites IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, now, think up 5 reasons why so we would have a valid debate, number them 1-5, I will help keep track of this but I am not able to help present it in response to the Management Plan, I have a crack femurol head requiring a total hip replacement this month, essentually I can not walk.

Thanks to those helping voice an openion,

Ranger Rick of rickandurs

 

 

Sam D.

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Posts: 677
 #12 

The DOJ has been issuing a growing wave of such guidelines over the years, reaching an ever larger portion of business activities. In September 2010, the DOJ issued guidelines for "recreational facilities," including a new rule that all public access swimming pools must provide a lift capable of moving disabled patrons from their wheelchairs into the water...

On Jan. 31 of this year, DOJ granted the industry's call for a clarification: But it was not the answer they wanted. All 300,000 public pools in the United States must install a permanent fixed lift. The deadline for compliance is March 15 2012. Call it "Poolmageddon."

So what happens when a disabled individual comes to SVHS, camps at a designated wheelchair accessible campsite and finds no lift at the Sunrise pool? The Obama DOJ has said it will not be enforcing the new guidelines right away. That means no fines from the government, for now.

But the ADA also empowered citizens to sue for non compliance with DOJ guidelines. The result will be a huge payday for enterprising trial lawyers everywhere. NPS will have to install lifts to all pools and then build coal/nuclear plant to power the lifts. That will require 10 year environmental study that will inevitably lead to a bunch of lawsuits from environmental and other groups. Or  all the pools can be busted out.

So, please comment to keep things the way they are now without having an officially demarcated campground.

 ... just a thought...

 

Biotech Dave

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Posts: 25
 #13 
That is not to say there hasn't been some evolution on how the Saline has managed through the years.  But it has been in response to issues, and tends to solve them.  It isn't so there can be a grand master plan to administer.

The NPS HAS to do a plan like this for everywhere it is.

That doesn't mean the plan has to require changes, or additional "management".

It might just be that the plan puts into a language description what has been the Saline culture of management through peer pressure and volunteerism.

aka.... STATUS QUO
Randy

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Posts: 16
 #14 
"STATUS QUO!  That is what I want to see.  No change to how we have done it for years.  The place works better than any other camping area I've ever been in and is truly UNIQUE.  The world doesn't need another traditional campground in the Saline Valley."

Well said, my friend!
Biotech Dave

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Posts: 25
 #15 
STATUS QUO!  That is what I want to see.  No change to how we have done it for years.  The place works better than any other camping area I've ever been in and is truly UNIQUE.  The world doesn't need another traditional campground in the Saline Valley.

Designated sites would be lame, and largely ignored by the users.  And when the desert does a remodel through washout, wind, or plant growth, they would become "obsolete" and of course impossible for the NPS to properly maintain.

Our gov't is good at building things (politically exciting), not so good at maintenance (BORING politically).  The only reason this site is maintained are the users and volunteers and Lee.  The NPS should not make a bunch of changes that will require them to commit resources they don't have or could be used better elsewhere in the park.  

Concrete slabs would end up getting eroded and left high or buried in talc, and would create long term maintenance issues and frankly be ugly.  I would hate "designated" sites. 

To make "official" handicapped sites that would be Fed compliant would end up costing a fortune in design and construction.....can you see wheel chair ramps with proper slopes to access all of the common areas in the lower springs?  That is what it would take. 

I wouldn't be opposed to some decent cooking hearths or fire ring rigs, but that would probably end up with the caveat that they be the only place you can use fire, which would suck.  So if some are added, they should be options, but our current, drag a fire pan to wear you want it method should be continued.

I do find the native rock fire circles to be potentially dangerous.  Many of the native rocks will violently fragment and explode sending very hot rock shrapnel flying if exposed to high fire temperatures.  Makes for an exciting time with lots of pinholes burned through tents, etc....  Not really a Saline unique situation, but one many people just aren't very aware of.  But then, most of them don't make fires hot enough to explode rocks like me......

I would like to see a central location to deposit ashes.  I find hauling hot ashes/coals out not typically viable in my situation.  And given the winds, the fire pans tend to be "self-cleaning" over time.  A central metal ash deposit location would be a big plus and would probably be used by many users.

I would not mind paying the NPS entry fee to camp use the Saline, but I will NEVER drive hundreds of extra miles to pay it.  If the NPS would simply install an "Iron Ranger" with envelopes to pay your fee and take a receipt, I'd use it.  Particularly if the money collected would be used to support the Saline site.  Like maybe get Lee a salary or a budget.

Enough comments for now.  I will at some point include this in an official reply to the NPS.
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